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It is generally recognized that theming, and more specifically the availability of both good-looking high quality themes and skilled theme developers remains one of Drupal's most important Achilles' heels, in spite of a lot of efforts to attract designers to the Drupal community, and to make Drupal theming easier. The Drupal forums are filled with "Drupal theme designer wanted" posts and with people complaining that there are really not that much ready-to-go themes available. Any theme-related change in Drupal core, such as the addition of Garland and the color picker has been cheerfully welcomed.
From my own experience of developing personal blogs and Drupal sites for rather small businesses, I can tell that a lot of non-tech people value the quality of their new website's design even higher than the functional power. Only when they are told the cost of hiring a specialized developer to create a brand new and unique Drupal theme for their business or organisation, a lot of "small" potential Drupal site owners get frustrated quickly and may start to look elsewhere. Some may argue that this kind of users is not the target audience of the Drupal project, but I disagree. I am sure that by dramatically increasing the number of relatively simple Drupal themes this group of Drupal users will grow exponentially.
Well, I was sure of that. Right now, I'm not so sure anymore since the facts contradict the theory. For example, about five months ago, Jeff Eaton announced his Gutenberg module. This module allows you to download Movable Type styles and install them as if they were genuine Drupal themes. There is a wealth of these styles available, such as the really nice ones of The Style Contest. Obviously, this isn't the ultimate solution, but if the demand for Drupal themes was so high, one would expect Drupal users to literally eat such a project alive. However, all of this didn't happen - as far as I can see at least. After testing the module, I must admit that there are some bugs, and that not all MT styles work right out of the box. But that wouldn't bother a convinced Open Source user. He or she would simply file issues in the patch queue to help squash those bugs. There are only six issues for the Gutenberg project in total.
Now why did this happen? Was this project not sufficiently promoted? Or is the demand for Drupal themes not that high after all? I would be really interested in another download statistics update to see how the theme-related modules are performing, because I'm a bit confused here...
A couple of reasons.
The end result is that it immediately got us a large batch of existing skins, but it didn't make a lot of sense for someone with existing design skills to work against, unless they were already in the MT community and doing skinning.
I think a much more promising approach is being taken in Drupal 6 core. http://drupal.org/node/163785 and http://drupal.org/node/163723 together make it possible to develop flexible 'nothing but the css and images' themes for D6. A designer would never need to touch PHP, and the results would be distributable as a complete standalone theme.
Interestingly enough, the fact that these 'pure style' themes would inclue no PHP opens up possibilities for commercial (ie, non-GPL'd) style/skin repositories. That helps draw existing talent in as well.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, Jeff. Those two patches look really useful, hopefully _both_ ideas can still make it into Drupal 6 :)
Sometimes I think that designers and developers are from different planets.
It's very rare to find person which is good developer and good designer.
And process of creating drupal themes needs both.
Gutenber module was nice effort, but IMHO, better option is to have native drupal themes.
Design and developing are 2 quite distinct disciplines, which is why your comment holds true. In my experience, which is limited to say the least, designers tend to work within the parameters that developers have given them. They often try to push the design to the limits and explore areas that are underexploited. When you start trying to see design from a developers POV, you lose some of the drive to push the developers, and for me that is what makes good design - a wish to push against the limits you feel are constraining you. I personally feel they are 2 seperate disciplines and work best as such.
John.
It sounds to me like you're coming more from a designer's point of view there John.
Regards
Bob
Absolutely. Gutenberg, actually, started out as a proof of concept: I was digging a bit deeper into the theme system than I had before and wanted to experiment with something that wouldn't suck me into a year's worth of CSS tweaking, which I'm much much less experienced with. Duplicating the MT HTML structure meant that it would be a good exercise while still being useful for end-users.
That begs the question: is there anything that you've learned from that experiment, and specifically, from comparing MT themes to Drupal themes? Anything that we can take home (so to speak) for future version of Drupal?
That's a tough comparison, and might be worth a free-standing article or blog post.
I think right now, at least, anything we can to to lower the bar for folks messing with Drupal is a good thing. The broken up tpl.php files in D6 are a huge leap forward, along with the ability to expose tpl.php files in modules.
CSS issues are the next big hurdle, I think. Cleaning up our core CSS, making it easier to produce CSS-only themes, and so on will help bring the 'skinning' community on board. I've been kicking around some ideas, talking with Steven and a couple of other designers, and I think there are some ideas with real potential floating around.
http://drupal.org/node/164330 is a good first stab at one of the grimiest bits of our CSS/markup, the menu trees. It's one of the ugliest bits to style cleanly in a pure CSS theme, so improving it should be a top priority for us.
I think the lesson learned from looking through the MT stuff is that these kinds of structural issues matter a lot, and have a big impact on how people get comfortable with the system form a design standpoint.
To be honest, I didn't even know about the Gutenberg project. And here I thought I was paying attention.... :/
My sense, though, is that Drupal doesn't have more pre-packaged themes because every Drupal site is so different. When you consider that user interface design is much much more than a pretty skin, it's just hard to develop a theme that accommodates the wide variety of content a Drupal site can generate -- calendars, blogs, images, views, tables -- while also being usable and easy for the eye to scan.
In other words, I think the demand for good Drupal themes is high, but it's not that easy to develop or adapt one-size-fits-all solutions. I applaud the theme contributors who've managed to do it so far.
Right. The coding part is a lot simpler than it used to be, but the complexity of Drupal will continue to be larger than alternate CMSs. There are just so many factors to take into consideration when creating a generic theme that the design is probably harder than the coding.
Compare this to Wordpress which has all the admin stuff (including posting content) as a separate generic theme. And the non-admin stuff is only a blogging system, so you don't need to be very versatile. That saves a lot of work. I don't think Wordpress is any easier to code, it just takes less time to paint the hall than to redecorate the entire house.
Worse than the variety in Drupal themes is that of Drupal RTL themes, given that making a website work right-to-left in both Firefox and Safari is a pain (I stopped bothering about IE with all the CSS Voodoo required). My experience tells me that, even among those bloggers willing to climb the steep learning curve, WordPress is more preferable, if only because of its looks.
Drupal themes: wanted.
Two ideas?
Reopen theme.drupal.org where user can try live themes instead of having to install them. There are actually a lot of good themes for Drupal.
Also, create a contest for themers. All produced themes would be demoed on theme.drupal.org. And the winners could win Drupal books or any other stuff that the new Drupal Association would like to fund, like a trip to Drupal headquarters. ;-)
Actually, more and more Drupal users will mean more and more themes. Help themers find a home on Drupal and give them more tools and incentives to both create their themes and demo them on Drupal.
I have the feeling that a copy or two of Adobe Creative Suite Pro might sweeten the pot a bit more. ;) Perhaps Adobe can be convinced...
Quite a few patches in D6 are geared towards making this sort of promotion much easier. It would even be easy to offer multiple categories: 'Pure CSS Skins', 'Full Themes', 'Nontraditional', etc.
I've thought of a couple of ideas inspired by the Gutenberg theme. While WordPress themes don't use consistent markup, some of the WordPress theme generators do. It shouldn't be that difficult to create a theme, similar to Gutenberg, that works with the output of theme generator sites like templatr or the Wordpress Theme Generator.
I think that something similar might also work with Sandbox, the "Themer's Theme" for WordPress. I'm interested to see what comes out of the Sandbox Design Competition, to see if some of those designs might be suitable for adaption to Drupal.
I think that improving the interface of the themes page on Drupal.org would help too. There are still a lot of themes with no screen shots. As with the modules, it's hard for users to know what they're getting until they download Drupal, install Drupal, download the theme, install the theme, and test the theme. It's not that easy to "shop around" for Drupal themes. Contrast that with WordPress, you can view screenshots and *live demos* of tons of themes at the Theme Viewer site. It's one of several ways that the barrier to entry seems significantly lower for WordPress.
You will have good quality themes under the GPL when you allow themes to be also sold under commercial licences, like the many Joomla templates available for $25-$30. Since the Drupal community tends to take a very strict interpretation of the GPL (one that could even cover CSS and images, since they are included on the page by drupal_add_css and similar GPL'd functions), selling Drupal templates/themes for money is impossible. The only way for a Drupal themer to make a living is working for a client and hiding behind the client's copyright of logo, product photos, etc.
Don't fool yourselves, CSS-only themes are not going to solve this problem. Even if we forget about the linking issue, any kind of serious CMS theming requires manipulating the HTML output.
A declaration form the Drupal Association that you won't sue people who sell themes and will object to the FSF hounds going after your themer community - that would help, I think.
I'm the first to agree that a commercial theme marketplace would be a big boon to the Drupal community. However, I think it betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of Drupal theming to say that CSS-only themes won't help. Nothing prevents a company from releasing several GPL'd Drupal themes Like Zen, that provide an underlying skeleton for certain types of designs. Once that work is done, CSS + Images + JS skins for those underlying templates can be released and marketed separately. Considering the huge number of 'variation on a theme' templates in the Joomla! world, this isn't much different. It's somewhat trickier to figure out at first, from a business perspective, but for an end user the difference is nonexistant. Download X, drop it in, and configure it.
Unfortunately, that statement betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of what the GPL is. Only relicensing Drupal with an altered version of the GPL would make it possible to exempt code that utilizes the Drupal APIs from the GPL requirements. And that, in turn, would mean that Drupal would be unable to incorporate existing GPL code into its code base.
GPL is not incompatible with commerce. Those looking to sell their Drupal themes, would need to accept the GPL condition that derivative works would be out of their control, and the source and images would be open and modifiable by anyone.
Not incompatible but unfortunatelly but still less than perfectly compatible. As soon as something good is offered there will be people that will try to profit from it. Just look as osCommerce. There are tons of companies changing it a bit and trying to sell it as their own to less than well informed buyers. What do these companies contribute with? Nothing!
It could be stated that any extras made for drupal should be under the same license as drupal but that could scare off some people. So, no matter whick way you go somebody will complain.
I must admit that I'm confused a bit with those licensing questions.
After all, is it, or not possible to create commercial themes, and sell them.
Is there any page on drupal.org which can clear(!?) explain those questions.
There was an extensive post about this by Jeff Eaton last year.
Basically, PHP files (page.tpl.php, ...) are GPL, but other files such as CSS and images can be under any license. When creating a theme, this should be specified.
So yes, commercial themes are possible (as far as I understand) as long as you make it clear that you're only charging a fee for the CSS/images, and that the PHP files are released under the GPL.
The law is almost never a boolean. There are always grey zones and various interpretations. Sometimes there are several equally valid interpretations that contradict each other. That's why there are lawyers, judges, etc. Otherwise we could substitute the entire justice system with a rather simple computer program.
The GPL was created to be pervasive. It "taints" everything it touches - that's why it works so well for the open source community. In the strictest interpretation even text on a webpage must be GPL'd, if the webpage was created by a GPL program. The HTML tags come from GPL template files, therefore the entire HTML file must fall under the GPL.
An equally valid interpretation is that HTML, CSS, images, etc. are something external to the program and they can be licenced differently.
Which interpretation is valid? At the end, it depends on the courts. So you start a template business, I take your stuff and start to distribute it under the GPL, you sue me, and then the courts decide. The decision will be based on the actual text of the GPL, how it functions in the context of the entire legal system of the jurisdiction, "licencor's intent", "industry standard practices" (you can bring up the well-established Joomla template businesses as an example of standard practice), opinions of legal and technical experts, the personal inclinations and character of the judge (business-friendly or community-oriented guy), what the newspapers write about the case, etc. etc.
After a couple of consistent court rulings we will know where Drupal ends and commercial components begin. I do believe that in a sane world the Jeff Eaton interpretation would be accepted. But until then someone has to come forward, invest a lot of time and effort in developing commercial themes, knowing full well that anyone can take those themes and run wild with them. It would be the theme developer who would have to prove in court that the GPL does not apply to this and that part of a theme that he developed. It's not as simple as going to court and saying that this guy stole my laptop or briefcase or whatever.
Realistically, the legal risks of opening a Drupal template business will be minimal after Drupal commercial templating becomes an established industry. But whoever comes first should be explicitly supported by the Drupal community and the Drupal Association. That's why I'm saying that licencor's intent should be declared and there should be an official statement from the Association about the conditions under which commercial templates can be released.
1. The legal argument is a joke.
* It does not explain why wordpress, joomla have many great templates.
* It cannot be implemented. I am living in France, i can setup a website to sell templates based to the US from Vietnam within 2 days, how are you going to implement a law that is applicable only in the USA? let's be serious guys ...
2. Thanks you for the GUTENBERG project!!! Really thank you!
I spent 4 hours scanning the web depressed because i could not find decent business Dupral theme (even with fees was ok). At first, I used Joomla and bought a template $30 (the theme was good) but i did not like Joomla as tool so decided to switch.
There is something strange in the Drupal community ... really strange about the theme issue. Looking from the outside, it would seem that some people are preventing easy access to theme to keep some business for developers. Sorry if i upset people, I am probably wrong but i don't understand why i can buy good templates for Wordpress and Joomla and not for Drupal.
I totally agree with you.
To be more precise, I installed both Joomla and Drupal on different folders. Time will tell!
Make sure to let us know how it works out!
I have used joomla themes. but they didn't like this. Because not it needs more upgrade for graphics. ıam going to use for news website
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Interesting conversation, I have heavily used Joomla and Wordpress but only touched the surface for Drupal. It's such an awesome CMS, hopefully all of this can be worked out.
Interesting conversation, I have heavily used Joomla and Wordpress but only touched the surface for Drupal. It's such an awesome CMS, hopefully all of this can be worked out.
I have used joomla themes. but they didn't like this. Because not it needs more upgrade for graphics. ıam going to use for news website
Drupal can be used in so many areas that designing themes is a large task. If a company selects just one niche like Discussion Sites, that would be a start.
Drupal is used in all these areas:
* Community web portals
* Discussion sites
* Corporate web sites
* Intranet applications
* Personal web sites or blogs
* Aficionado sites
* E-commerce applications
* Resource directories
* Social Networking sites
Very helpful, thanks!!
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Drupal themes are very helpful.
Drupal themes will be helpful to community but i prefer working on wordpress or joomla
Nice! I've bookmarked it http://www.searchallinone.com/Other/Drupalrsquos_elusive_login_issue__Al... :D
Drupal themes are no doubt amazing!
Drupal templates are not easy to get.. and its tought to manage its admin area.. wordpress is much better system then that..
Very interesting blog, you got a new reader for sure!
Good information - thank you!
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Why is it that people love Drupal.
I'm using Wordpress and I really can't see why I should change? Rumors say that Wordpress is better for SEO, is that right?
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Thank you for sharing your views it the great thing to implement that but other files such as CSS and images can be under any license. When creating a theme, this should be specified.
Where do you go during the summer vacation?
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TOKYO, May 4 (Xinhua) -- Thanks to joint efforts by both countries, economic and trade relations between China and Japan have registered rapid growth since China adopted the reform and opening-up policy in 1978. As each other's key trade partner, the two nations have become increasingly interdependent. Japan has long been China's most important trade partner. During the 11years since 1993, Japan had been China's biggest trade partner. In 2007 China was Japan's biggest trade partner, while Japan became China's third biggest trade partner, with their two-way trade keeping two-digit growth. According to statistics released by China's Ministry of Commerce, two-way trade between the two countries climbed by 13.8 percent year-on-year to 236 billion U.S. dollars in 2007. Japan became China's biggest exporter and its fourth biggest export market. The growing bilateral trade volume has also led to changing trade pattern between China and Japan,as mechanical and electrical products with higher technology content have gradually taken the place of products with low value added such as raw materials and textiles. lending.age of conan goldaoc goldaoc power levelingage of conan power levelingaoc levelingEverQuest goldEverQuest platbuy eq goldeq plateverquest platinumEverQuest goldEverQuest platbuy eq goldeq plateverquest platinumage of conan goldaoc goldaoc power levelingage of conan power levelingaoc levelingtibia moneyvanguard goldwow goldwow power levelingwow powerlevelingwow goldwow power levelingage conan goldage conan goldage conan goldbuy ffxi gilbuy ffxi gilbuy ffxi gilwow powerleveling wow goldworld of warcraft goldbuy wow goldcheap wow goldwow power levelingwow powerlevelingwow goldworld of warcraft goldAccording to statistics by both countries, mechanical and electrical products accounted for more than half of their trade volume in 2007, along with China's economic growth and technical advance, Japan has increased its total investment in China and broadened the spheres for its investment in the country. Figures published by China's Ministry of Commerce show that Japan's investment in China had reached 60.7 billion dollars by 2007. Its direct investment in the country has also undergone a shift from processing industries such as raw material and foodstuff to manufacturing such as mechanical and electrical industry. buy wow goldcheap wow goldwow power levelingwow powerlevelingwow goldworld of warcraft goldbuy wow goldcheap wow goldwow power levelingwow powerlevelingDuring this period, many Japanese electrical and mechanical manufacturers moved their production bases to China one after another. Recent years have witnessed rapid growth of investment in R&D, financial service,logistics and marketing, becoming a new source for economic growth. A large number of Japanese enterprises are doing brisk business in various industries and different regions in China, reaping sizable investment returns. While spurring Japan's economic recovery and growth, everquest 2 goldeq2 platffxi gilfinal fantasy xi gilmaple story mesosmaplestory mesosmaplestory mesolotro goldlotr goldlord of the ring goldthey help boost China's technical progress, and improve the management and logistic and marketing services of China's enterprises. In addition, the Japanese government has contributed to the development of China's infrastructure and environmental protection and its education and poverty reduction through Japanese yen loans and free aid. As the second largest economy in the world, Japan has sophisticated technology in energy-saving and environmental protection and rich experience in implementing technology-oriented nation building strategy.age of conan goldaoc goldaoc power levelingage of conan power levelingaoc levelingage of conan goldage of conan goldage of conan goldage of conan goldage of conan goldage of conan gold lineage adenalineage 1 adenalineage 2 adenabuy lineage 2 adenalineage ii adenacheap lineage 2 adenaeverquest 2 goldeq2 platffxi gilfinal fantasy xi gilAs the biggest developing country, China has a market with enormous demand. Therefore, the two countries are highly complementary to each other in their economic growth and their economic, technical and trade cooperation have tremendous potential and will further develop in a deep-going manner. The exchanges of high-level visits,maple story mesosmaplestory mesosmaplestory mesolotro goldlotr goldlord of the ring goldlineage adena wow levelingwow golddofus kamaskamas dofusdofus kamaskamas dofusdofus kamaskamas dofusincluding the three visits-- dubbed "ice-breaking," "ice-thawing," and "spring-heralding" tours -- by leaders of both countries, have warmed up the China-Japan relations. The establishment of China-Japan high-level economic dialogue mechanism has offered better environment for the further growth of bilateral economic and trade relations. lineage 1 adenalineage 2 adenabuy lineage 2 adenalineage ii adenacheap lineage 2 adenalotro goldlotr goldlord of the ring goldmaple story mesosmaplestory mesosmaplestory mesosilkroad goldbuy silkroad goldsilkroad goldbuy silkroad goldcity of villains infamycov infamyEverQuest goldEverQuest platbuy eq goldeq plateverquest platinumThe Chinese government's commitment to sustained development, characterized by harmonious relations between man and nature, and greater emphasis on environmental protection, energy-saving and the better quality of economic growth, will provide broad vistas for the economic cooperation between the two countries.lineage adenalineage 1 adenalineage 2 adenabuy lineage 2 adenalineage ii adenacheap lineage 2 adenarunescape goldrunescape moneyrunescape goldrunescape moneyrunescape goldrunescape moneyA retrospection of the China-Japan economic development in the past decades shows that the two nations will be able to patch up rifts and come to a win-win solution as long as they adhere to the principle of equality and mutual benefit, friendly cooperation, as well as dialogue and consultation.
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